June 23, 2004

Tar Heel Monthly selected Roy Williams and Anson Dorrance as the 2004 Tar Heels of the Year, bringing them together for the first time ever for a joint interview. THM subscribers can read the lengthy full interview--which includes the Dorrance/Williams connection as undergraduates, thoughts on motivating players and how to target prospects in recruiting, and much more--exclusively in the latest issue; the outtakes are available exclusively here on TarHeelBlue.com.

By Adam Lucas

Tar Heel Monthly: Both of you have talked about the influence Coach Smith had on you. Do you remember the first time you really became aware of his philosophy?
Anson Dorrance: When you get an undergraduate degree at North Carolina, you have an associates degree in basketball. When I came here, I wasn't a basketball fan, and now there are only two teams in the universe that I follow: Carolina basketball and the United States women's national team. I know nothing about basketball except that I am a passionate supporter of our team. I was here during some exciting periods, because it was the end of the Charlie Scott era. One day, in a casual conversation, Coach Smith mentioned if I ever wanted to come watch a basketball practice, I would be welcome. All of us had heard about how few people were permitted to watch his teams train. I look back on what a mindless idiot I was as a 25-year-old, and for him to invite that idiot into one of his practices was an extraordinary gift. For the first time in my life, I saw organization in sport and I tried to mirror that. So much of what we do now, I stole from him. One week before the ACC Tournament our entire staff was invited to watch their pre-ACC preparation. Vince Carter was a freshman, and I learned a lot about how to create an extraordinary athlete. In those days, Vince was this non-hustling, lethargic lump of flesh. Even with my limited understanding of the game, I knew he had no defensive presence. By the time he left, there was a transformation. Watching Coach Smith drive him to his potential was wonderful.

I read everything, and I learn something from all our coaches. Through the years, Coach Smith has taught me you can't control what you do offensively in a game, but you can control your defensive presence. We've built our soccer teams on the fact that everyone has to play defense. In our game, traditionally the front-runners stand around and wait for the ball. But here, they've all defended. We have a blue-collar mentality even among elite athletes, and that comes from watching Dean Smith and seeing that what really won consistently was the defense of his kids. Even if some guy had an extraordinary offensive night, the only thing he'd talk about in his press conference was Dudley Bradley's defense. That made me think to myself, 'There's a lesson there.' That's one thing among the 60,000 that I learned from him.

THM: Coach Williams, that sounds a lot like some of the things you said this year.
Roy Williams: The effort should always be there. There's a time in basketball when it's an individual guarding the ball, but you have to move together as a team defensively. I'm like Anson. I played for Coach Guthridge as a freshman and got a lot of organizational things there. My high school coach had played part-time for Coach Smith on the freshman team, so he was a big Coach Smith fan and that was the reason I came here. After my freshman year, I found out I wasn't good enough to continue playing on the varsity level, and I had some people who wanted to talk to me about transferring to a smaller school, but I wasn't interested. When I was an official in the intramural program, I'd go sit in Carmichael and take notes. When I was the supervisor of officials, I'd walk through and stay 15-20 minutes at a time three to five times each week and take some notes. When I took the Kansas job, Eddie Fogler was at Wichita State and he said I was 'frighteningly organized.' I didn't know what that meant but I knew I wanted to get a lot of things done in a short period of time. With my life, I try to do too many things. With my team, it's even more organized. I can tell you where I'm going to be on any day at any time.

THM: Coach Williams, is it harder in your sport to find a player so focused on winning because of the individual emphasis?
RW: Yes, it's harder, but not necessarily because kids have changed. At the level we're recruiting, in some ways college is almost a bus stop. That's a negative about our game. The best high school basketball player in the country, the guy I think should go first in the NBA Draft, we were the only school he visited and I was one of only two coaches who took the time to go in his home. He handed me a paper he wrote in ninth grade that the teacher gave him an A on. It was about dreams. His dream was to start as a freshman, win four state championships, be the best player his high school ever had, and be the number-one draft choice in the NBA. There wasn't one word about college in this paper he wrote as a ninth-grader. No Final Four was mentioned, nothing about a college scholarship.

With all the money that's out there, even the very best kids who love the game of basketball always have the NBA in the back of their mind. Kirk Hinrich is as big a gym rat as I've ever been around in my life. But even if you have a player like that, it's still in the back of his mind. The 27th pick next year will make $751,000 guaranteed and he still has two more years guaranteed. Kids want to be difference makers and want to win but have to fight off the selfish, individual part. Michael Jordan wanted to win but also very much wanted to take the big shot and make the big play. Later in his career, he passed it to John Paxson and Steve Kerr, and they made two shots that won world championships. In today's times, people would say he should have taken those shots, but he was only interested in winning. Michael was selfish, there's no doubt in my mind. But great players fight that off.

THM: Coach Dorrance, what's something you'd want to ask Coach Williams about his program?
AD: He doesn't have time to do this, but one of these days on a golf course I've got 1,000 questions. Even this interview, for me, is a wonderful learning experience. Trust me, we're the same age. I'm going to have time to spend with him before both of us are done. I'm going to pick his brain clean.

RW: That's true for me, too. I enjoy seeing all our sports because I want to be supportive of them. It was a thrill for me to go to the NCAA semifinals because I just like to watch Anson coach. I did a clinic on May 7 in Las Vegas and was sitting there with Geno Auriemma and Tommy Crean from Marquette and we were talking about coaches. I brought up Anson's name and said, 'Do you know how many times he's been in the Final Four? Every time.' It was mind boggling to them.

I want to go watch them practice, which I didn't get to do this year. It's easier for him now than when he first started, but it's never easy. In some ways it's more difficult because the more you do, the more people expect. So I want to watch a practice, and hopefully more than one. The interaction he has with very gifted athletes and continually pushing them, knowing some need to be pushed more than others, is a thing I'm looking forward to watching.

THM: If I made you the president of the NCAA, what's the first thing you would do?
RW: I'd throw away the rule book and start over again. The first thing is that we have to have student welfare in mind, and secondly, everyone has to operate legally and honestly. But you can't legislate honesty. I'd have a few very simple rules. Don't buy, don't pay, don't do those kinds of things. If you do anything like that, you're out of the game forever. You're finished with coaching. I'd want the whole attitude to be about student welfare. Men's basketball makes so much money from these kids, but for kids who don't have a good family financial situation, it's tough for them to live. Their scholarship pays for a meal but if they want to go somewhere else to eat, they're paying for that meal twice. They can't act like a normal student, and I think that's so wrong, particularly with the amount of money we generate.

AD: The things that drive me up the wall are all the rules that prevent you from doing the right thing with your student-athlete. I remember reading about Rick Majerus at Utah buying one of his poverty-stricken kids a cheeseburger and was turned in for that. I can't believe we have rules that prevent us from doing the humane and proper thing. I can't believe that if I'm hanging out with a kid in my office and if I don't have time to fully chat at that time, we can't drive somewhere later and have a meal. I can't transport them on campus in my car and all my meals with them are monitored in a way that prevents me from ever picking up the tab for them. How ludicrous is that? Not that those rules don't have a reason, but so often in your decision-making you're doing the very thing that is the worst thing for developing an effective relationship with the student-athlete. We're trying to get them to trust us and connect with us, and so many barriers are put in the way of this potentially superb relationship.

RW: In the summer, I don't even get time to work with my players. We can say they should come to summer school, lift weights, and play pickup games, but I don't get to coach them and can only take about their academic work. I can't talk about their elbow on their jump shot. That's so silly and it promotes them going to other people who might have their own agenda. We should throw all those things away. 90 percent of the rulebook is made for the small percentage of people who cheat. The 95 percent who want to do it the right way are hampered.

Adam Lucas is the publisher of Tar Heel Monthly and can be reached at alucas@tarheelmonthly.com. To subscribe to Tar Heel Monthly, click here.